By now, you may have seen the video by Mark Driscoll and the Acts 29 Network which deals with church planting. So much good stuff in this video (as in all of his sermons). And he rightly notes that the least likely age group to come to church are men in their 20s.
But good grief! I want to like this guy’s ministry… I want to promote his ministry to my people but just can’t … I want to even be an admirer and supporter of his hip, cool, trendy, shocking style of preaching (a switch, considering that I preach in a traditional, Southern Baptist Church in the buckle of the Bible belt).
But I just can’t.
Today marks the day I am officially off the bandwagon. I just have such difficulty sifting the beauties and majesties of the truths he preaches from God’s Word from the sophomoric jargon he uses as a vehicle to carry along his point. At first, I liked his candor — now it embarrasses me. He is a Reformed loose cannon who bends over backwards to be edgy and his message of the cross of Christ and its offensiveness to the world’s cursed worldview is buried in another type of offensiveness — his presentation.
An alternative? Tim Keller. He is informed on the culture, presents his message with clarity and heart, and most importantly, I can in good conscience give one of his messages to one of my deacons or one of my On-Mission Team members at church.
What frightens me most is that there are many who may try to style themselves after Driscoll. Be careful if you do — speaking the truth in love still applies, last I checked (Ephesians 4:15). Regardless of his motives, he comes off too much as a loose cannon to convey a passionate love for his people and his city.
What think ye?
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20 responses so far ↓
theologiaviatorum // May 2, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Personally I go back and forth. Yet, I have not read any of his books nor listened to any of his sermons. I guess all my opinions are formed from hearsay. Therefore, I think it is fair to say that my opinion on Driscoll is currently middle of the road or undefined depending on how you look at it. I like some things I hear about him and I don’t like some things I hear about him.
But I totally understand from a pastoral point of view what you are getting at. If I were in your shoes I don’t think I would be able to recommend him to one of my leaders. Yet, if I were in a new inner city church plant in Seattle that may be different. Tim Keller does seem to be a more stable alternative.
Steven // May 2, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Amen. I have felt this way for a long while, but until now, no one agreed with me. Thanks Matt!
I love the intent of Driscoll’s ministry, but, man, drop the vulgar innuendo. Let me add a note. I was a pagan, God-hating person, who was wrapped up in all the vices that one finds in places far away from the Bible belt. It was not hip and edge that brought me to Christ. It was the Spirit that called and convicted me in the Word of God. When that transformation occured, I began to love other Christians, even those traditional Baptists of which I had nothing in common. It was the Holy Spirit that caused that-not me. When people are called into a relationship with God, they will love Christians and music tastes and will become less important- they might even attend a church that does not appeal to their tastes simply because it teaches the Word of God faithfully! ( This really does happen)
So, we should be careful to focus on appearances. Lets focus on Christ.
Lets keep Driscoll in our prayers.
Matthew R. Perry // May 2, 2007 at 9:00 pm
William:
Just a cursory read through Mark’s first book will give you all you need to know about his presentation. He is a theological horse — but so much extraneous nonsense accompanies it.
*Shakes head* Why? Oh why!?!?
Bumble // May 3, 2007 at 12:07 am
Tim Keller would fit your audience much better. Mark is made for Seattle!
ckhnat // May 3, 2007 at 12:54 pm
I agree with Bumble. Driscoll even says himself that his ministry is geared for the people of Seattle. He wouldn’t expect one of the pastors of an Acts 29 church in India to preach like him, much less a pastor in rural Kentucky.
Matthew R. Perry // May 3, 2007 at 1:13 pm
Yes, I agree that Mark takes the Seattle culture into consideration — we as preachers must certainly consider our audience. I live in a city of 250,000 people with two major universities and numerous JuCos within 15 minutes of us. But I would question according to Scripture whether any of his vulgar, sophomoric comments belong anywhere in the mouth and mind of a believer. In considering Ephesians 4:29:
… would you ever consider much of the bantor of Driscoll is ‘wholesome talk’? Does he truly build up with his jokes?
When I hear Driscoll in some of his remarks, I cannot help but think of James 3:3-12
Too much salt water comes out along with the fresh — “these things ought not to be so.”
Anonymous // May 4, 2007 at 7:27 pm
If I’m not quite where you are, then I’m really close. I was watching the same video and thinking how great it was. Then, I suddenly envisioned showing it to my church, and then I suddenly envisioned my people in a paralyzed state of shock?
Just a clash of cultures, or is Driscoll over the top? I’m not sure yet, but man I do I sympathize with what you’re saying.
Workman's Toolbox « Unashamed Workman // May 5, 2007 at 5:10 am
[...] Bill Hybels publicly criticised for not speaking of women church planters. * But Matt Perry is officially off the Driscoll bandwagon. * An interesting blog I hadn’t come across before: Mark Meynell who wrote an excellent [...]
Glenn // May 5, 2007 at 10:20 am
Attending Mars Hill for a couple of years now when I travel to Seattle (bi-monthly) has been a great experience. Sitting in the “pew” and participating in the worship and hearing Pastor Mark preach to his congregation is the only way to really understand his ministry. I’ve also had occasion to hear other Mars Hill pastors preach from time to time - Lief Moi stands out for his excellent expository skills. What anyone who listens or watches Pastor Mark’s sermons must do is keep in mind the “Sitz im Leben” of the messages - they are delivered as a labor of love to a growing body of radical believers in a city largely given over to the pursuit of all that the world has to offer. Seattle is a wealthy city - both monetarily and culturally, and largely liberal & tolerant of just about anything other than the Gospel. It is to THAT culture that Mars Hill speaks and labors to allow the Gospel to permeate the message, their lives and mission. I have to agree that Tim Kellor is the “better” teacher, but one thing to keep in focus is that Pastor Kellor, John Piper, and C.J. Mahaney have all been mentoring Pastor Mark and continue to have a great impact on his life and teaching. We should all pray for the work of God in cities like Seattle, and not just at Mars Hill, but throughout that city.
Matthew R. Perry // May 5, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Glenn:
Thank you for your perspective on this. After I wrote this and after talking with a couple of friends of mine on this matter, I wonder how much of this is his ’sitz im leben’ (situation in life, so to speak) coupled with youthful zeal. He and I are roughly the same age, so I tend to see things from that perspective anyway. I would love to see Driscoll in 10 years to see if any of that edge comes off.
Sandy Bessire // May 6, 2007 at 5:23 pm
I watched Mark Driscoll speak in Canada recently at the same conference at which John Piper was also a guest speaker. Mr. Driscoll called men at his church “knuckelheads” that he would “yell and scream” at — and that it was received well by them (unless women were there).
Then I heard John Piper speak.
I regret that John Piper’s name and message is connected with Mark Driscoll’s name and message.
Rob // May 9, 2007 at 6:49 am
Piper took a lot of heat for having Mark speak at the DGM National Conference last year. Make no apologies on behalf of Dr. Piper. He is a strong supporter of Driscoll’s vision and commitment to the Gospel. The conference was wonderful and Driscoll was excellent.
Chuck // July 7, 2007 at 3:39 am
I get the sense that those who have a strong negative reaction to Driscoll are watching him with their religious cultural radar on and not their Biblical eyes. If men are “knuckelheads” there is nothing unBiblical about saying so. In fact that is called speaking the truth. And before you say that it doesn’t sound very loving remember some of the unloving sounding but truthful things Christ said to the Jews during his ministry.
Matthew R. Perry // July 7, 2007 at 8:43 am
Chuck:
I get the sense that you are making way too general a comment about those who do not care for Driscoll’s delivery. And by comparing Driscoll to Jesus is by far the biggest stretch in defending him. It’s one thing to offend — it’s another thing to continue pepper your sermons with sophomoric jargon reserved for locker rooms and continually peppering your sermons with what Paul calls “unwholesome talk.” Regardless of the culture, it’s inappropriate and takes away from the thrust of his otherwise fantastic content. He’ll either have to season or he’ll be a footnote on the pages of history. I’d rather have the former.
brodyharper // July 21, 2007 at 10:23 am
Here is a different take on Mr. Driscoll’s manliness.
Joshua // November 12, 2007 at 6:28 am
(From Matt: I wanted to include this comment, but will cover over some of the saltier words with asterisks (*).)
I’m 17 and now live in Vancouver, BC after moving here 3 months ago to attend school. Before now, I have lived in and around Tacoma, WA, roughly 30 miles south of Seattle. I’ve been in church since before I was born and have primarily attended Pentecostal charismatic churches, from AG to Foursquare, and am now ashamed to say, was a sissy. For the past year I have been attending Mars Hill and since then, my life has changed. I also watched that video and honestly, Seattle needs a man like Mark Driscoll, a man who calls the men of the church to step up and be patriarchs. I’ve been to ‘feel good’ churches where sex is a twice a year sermon and the pressing issues of marriage, baby making, lament, masculinity and theological grounding get pushed off for teachings of blessings, faith and the overly popular grace of God. Which are all fine and dandy; but how the h*** is someone to overcome a sin like pornography or fornication, when all they hear is how God’s grace covers our sin and not Psalms 5:5 which says “for you hate all who do evil.” ‘Love the sinner, hate the sin’? that’s was Ghandi, not Lord Jesus Christ. Now this isn’t a sissy God who says, ‘you can do whatever the (h***) you want cause my blood covers it’ but rather ‘I love you but you really (****) me off when you when you sin against me’. Seattle needs a teacher like Mark, someone who calls it like it is, tells you when you’re wrong, and makes you want to be a righteous man or at least ashamed of being a self worshiping pervert.
Now if you come from a conservative place with mullets and giant haired preacher’s wives, then I can understand your shock. But here in the Northwest, home of the rain, it’s not always happy, and life ain’t always full of blessing, and life is never fair, so we don’t need someone telling us it’s wrong to get angry or that we should be happy all the time even though our sisters just got raped, and that with faith, we can get anything and everything we want. We don’t need that. We need Mark Driscoll.
Carley // November 18, 2007 at 3:14 am
I began to listen to Driscoll because I like Piper so much and I thought if Piper likes him then I’m on board and I live in the Seattle area. I heard the Mars Hill youtube video where a young man spoke of his pagan past that involved “nailing as many chicks as possible”. I was jarred with that image and attitude and then I listened to Driscoll’s macho church video about the “chick-i-fied” church and began to seriously read all that was coming out of his ministry with more and more horror.
The fruit of Driscoll is displayed very clearly in Joshua’s post above. In his post you see a young man raised in the church who is now ashamed of himself for his love of a sissy gospel and likes the “real man” talk of Driscol. And if you read Driscolls book he flaunts his days of “banging weak willed women like a broken screen door in the wind”
He swears in his post (this is a Driscoll thing too) and he mocks the sissified people of the south and so on and he has adopted the language and attitude of his Real Man pastor. Please read Driscolls site resurgence where one of his blogger’s writes about the feminization of the church and see how he defines real men–primarily rude, raw, edgy, offensive, arrogant, obnoxious and at times vulgar. The fact that Driscoll maintains that men today don’t want to worship a Jesus they could beat up.
Actually, if you spend about 40 hours just sifting through all that he is saying and see the response in this town, look at his videos, read his web-site, listen to his critics and allies it becomes very clear that he is very, very dangerous to the cause of Christ and to living with humility and brokenness. Driscoll is gaining an audience by appealing to the lust of the flesh of young men. Read how his peer Anthony Bradley calls the Hard-Core Punk culture awesome and says we should embrace them in all their violence. It is stunning.
Joshua // June 24, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Carly,
I’ve attended and listened to well over 200 hours of Driscoll’s teachings, and read his books, I have no idea what you are talking about. Driscoll teaches biblical masculinity. I’m gonna go out on a limb and ask if you do(or will) let your boys play with guns and swords? The result of passive sweater vest good little christian men, is that they are prone to not doing anything and end up committing sins of omission. They stand by while perverts sneak into the church and take advantage or our sisters, they don’t step up to the adventure that God has called them too and worst of all, they don’t defend the scriptures or challenge questionable doctrine. Driscoll doesn’t tell guys to pick fights or unjustly assert themselves, he teaches them to stand up for Truth and to defend their wives, children, and sisters in Christ, as well as the name of Jesus. Driscoll’s teaching is very raw but that’s because he took heed to 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. He became like a Seattlite, to win the Seattlites. Unless anyone can find me a verse that speaks against what Driscoll is teaching, then there aren’t any grounds for argument and this is only meaningless talk as 1 Timothy says. I would encourage you to watch http://www.marshillchurch.org/sermonseries/nehemiah/week_06.aspx .
Not teaching christian men to stand up and fight is like building a house without any locks on the doors.
I hope this helps.
-Joshua
Joshua // June 24, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Sorry Matt, But I thought I put an ‘e’ in Carley, must’ve missed it. Could you fix that for me. Thanks.
Carley // July 4, 2008 at 5:43 am
Hi Joshua,
I just seriously wonder if you are okay because of your focus on pervert’s feasting on your sisters as a point of frequent reference. Did something really bad happen to your sister or is this something they teach at the church. Are they instructing you that it is your role to protect the women from perverts waiting at the door or worse sneaking in? I know you think you are instructing me in the way more perfectly, but really your writing is just quite alarming.
What you should know is that one of the leading causes of death among women, is not the pervert sneaking into the church but the macho guy they marry… You ought to check the statistics out if you are really concerned about the physical welfare of women. Having worked with battered women it became clear early on the more invested in being macho men are the more violent they are to the women in their lives. And churches with more authoritarian approaches to women often have incredible levels of violence going on behind closed doors. However, it is a wide-spread problem not just in the church.
I also wonder about the reference to the macho Driscoll men not wearing sweater vests and being good little Christians so they can beat the perverts up. It makes me think that somewhere along the line your sense of masculinity was really challenged or that a family member was really hurt and the male authority figure did not protect them? Or worse the male authority inflicted the damage. Either this happened to you, or your world view is being shaped in frightening ways by this Driscoll’s odd teachings which by the way I do not find biblical.
I also get the impression that you believe that people who oppose Driscoll like sweater vested emasculated men who are sissies and wimps (using language you use) Thus you make the assumption that if I had sons I wouldn’t let them play war games and you make the assumption I am young. It is a stereotype, which concerns me and makes me wonder what is being done to your head that you see the world through that kind of lens. A lens predicated on the nothion that anyone who opposes Driscoll for theological or moral reasons wants to emascualte men and dress them in pink.
I see this sort of slant as its own kind of perversion. Your Emails have been the most persuasive argument about the damage this church does to impressionable young men.
Again, it also makes me wonder if something really bad happened to your family or if you are being taught that the perverts want to come and damage sisters–but Driscoll men are manly enough to beat them up? I’m sad for you if that is the case.
I didn’t have sons I have fabulously beautiful, extremely well educated daughters and nieces who have lived within walking distance of Driscolls church and when I ask the impression of the church among them and their friends and other Seattlelites he is supposed to being winning over en masse because he is so manly, relevant and cool, they report that the Hipster woman hating church is considered a joke among most, except the very small percentage of the town that are entertained and titillated by the Hipster drama theology. Which really is one of the most irrelevant things in town compared to the other issues Seattle faces.
I’m relieved they are not attracted to it, because I fear them becoming the slave of a macho Driscollite that keeps them barefoot, pregnant and picking up socks in the name of protecting the little women from perverts… Frankly, women probably need more protection from those kind of guys in terms of wasting their lives then they need protection from perverts. There is more than one kind of predator. I’m very grateful my daughters and nieces found this church appalling and go to churches where they are treated with respect. I wouldn’t want them to waste their lives and dumb themselves down enough to fit into a place like that
There was a point that I was really fascinated by this discussion and I appreciate your efforts to win me over. You didn’t succeed and now, I’m done with the conversation because I understand in terms of the Church of the Living God, all over the world, this little gnat of a movement in Seattle will blow over and be seen for what it was. Just one man’s little kingdom around a strange blend of shock jock, reformed theology, woman hating, beer drinking, profane, loud and ugly empty noise. Ultimately the big draw is that it appealed to the pride of man and the desire to be some kind of gospel ganster and Lord over their own domain. What a waste.
Take care
Carley
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